Michigan Senate debate, October 8, 2026
WOOD TV8 / NewsNation · Watch the debate →
What the model flagged, by speaker
Same questions, same format. A flag is about the language, not whether an answer was true or which candidate is right. Speakers are identified from the broadcast captions and checked by a person.
Claims checked
Factual claims each candidate made in their own words, looked up in fact-checkers, primary sources and wire reporting, as of the debate date. A verdict that a claim is wrong or misleading is shown only when it cites an established fact-checker or an independent primary source, and its confidence is not low.
Abdul El-Sayed
“I have a medical degree from Columbia University.”
Checked as: Abdul El-Sayed has a medical degree from Columbia University. Supported by politifact.com
source ↗Confidence: high
“The UAW has advocated for smart tariffs, where we actually hook it to an industrial policy that makes sense.”
Checked as: The UAW has advocated for tariffs tied to an industrial policy. Supported by congress.gov
source ↗Confidence: medium
“They killed two people.”
Checked as: ICE killed two people in Minneapolis. Supported by congress.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“diplomacy is what the obama administration had used to negotiate a scenario in iran where we did not have proliferation of of nuclear material”
Checked as: The Obama administration used diplomacy to negotiate an agreement with Iran that prevented the proliferation of nuclear material. Supported by govinfo.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“Donald Trump just doesn't like anything that President Obama has done. So he decided to rip it up in his first term”
Checked as: Donald Trump withdrew from the Iran nuclear deal (JCPOA), which was negotiated by the Obama administration, during his first term as president. Supported by 2017-2021-translations.state.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“I'm a dad and a doctor.”
Checked as: Abdul El-Sayed is a father and a doctor. Supported by budget.senate.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“that's exactly what donald trump has just done with the one big ugly bill and the iran war and he's backstopped the entire thing”
Checked as: Donald Trump passed the 'One Big Ugly Bill' and initiated a war with Iran, and Mike Rogers supported both. Supported by armedservices.house.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
26 more claims we couldn't verify from our sources
- “$80 to fill up your gas tank.”
- “When you're paying $5 gas and $8 diesel, that's an emergency.”
- “when you're running because Donald Trump called you and asked you to run”
- “a Canadian tariff policy that we are paying $5,600 a year for”
- “a guy who's bought off $5 million from corporations to run his previous campaigns”
- “voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them high 19 times” (said 2 times)
- “he voted four times to keep you from buying the prescription drugs in Canada”
- “14 million dollars two yachts a mcmansion in florida” (said 2 times)
- “It's a corporation he advised that was helping Maduro spy on his own people.”
- “He wants you to have to pay $50 to see a doctor.”
- “A million dollars alone from Big Pharma. Another million dollars. from the health insurance corporations”
- “my opponent, he voted against border funding when he was in Congress”
- “he took it off the market”
- “$2.7 million in Florida, my guy.”
- “He's personally invested in the company that controls the real estate for the Saline Data Center.”
- “private investors to the tune of $2.6 million in the data center put in your backyard alone.”
- “when he was in Congress, he literally told somebody from the stand, if you don't know your privacy is being violated, is your privacy really being violated?”
- “he said again another quote we would love to have just a bit of what Google has on you”
- “he answered the call from Donald Trump and is therefore running”
- “while my colleague was in Congress for 14 years, they accrued a $12 billion. trillion dollar deficit 12 trillion dollars the 40 trillion we have 12 trillion alone came while he was in congress”
- “I actually went to, I learned that at Michigan where I actually went to school.”
- “$64,000 alone from DTE.”
- “This guy voted to keep prescription drug prices high.”
- “This guy took more money from corporate super PACs than anybody in the Michigan delegation when he was in Congress.”
- “He called himself the champion of big pharma.”
- “$14 million. That's what he made when he left Congress doing the work for the corporations he had just previously been regulating”
No fact-checker, primary source or wire report we search addressed these. That says nothing about whether they are true.
Mike Rogers
“highest auto insurance rates in the country”
Checked as: Michigan has the highest auto insurance rates in the country. Supported by apnews.com
source ↗Confidence: high
“Detroit Diesel added a third shift because of those tariffs.”
Checked as: Detroit Diesel added a third shift because of U.S. tariffs. True, but missing context: Detroit Diesel previously operated three shifts (as of at least 2014–2015), so the "third shift" may be a restoration of prior capacity rather than a net new addition driven by tariffs.
source ↗Confidence: medium“Detroit Diesel is recalling laid-off workers and adding a third shift.”
“We have the Chevy Silverado came back to Michigan.”
Checked as: Chevy Silverado production came back to Michigan. True, but missing context: Whether Silverado production had previously left Michigan before returning, which is what "came back" implies.
source ↗Confidence: medium“In January 2022, we announced that we will convert our assembly plant in Orion Township, Michigan for production of the Chevrolet Silverado EV and the electric GMC Sierra.”
“just in this town, we had Ruby Garcia, who was killed by an illegal immigrant”
Checked as: Ruby Garcia was killed by an illegal immigrant in Grand Rapids, Michigan (the town where the debate/campaign event was held). Supported by hudson.house.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“They've decimated their Army, Navy, their Air Force.”
Checked as: Military action has decimated Iran's Army, Navy, and Air Force. Supported by api.politifact.com
source ↗Confidence: high
“This is the same IRGC that has killed American troops in Iraq.”
Checked as: The IRGC has killed American troops in Iraq. Supported by 2017-2021.state.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“tried a terrorist attack here in the United States”
Checked as: The IRGC attempted a terrorist attack in the United States. Supported by justice.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“all of the information is they do not have that capability any longer”
Checked as: Iran no longer has the capability to produce a nuclear weapon. True, but missing context: Experts assessed that strikes set back Iran's nuclear weapons capability "by many years" rather than eliminating it entirely, and a FactCheck.org rating found the claim of total destruction of Iran's nuclear capability to be "Exaggerated."
source ↗Confidence: medium“Fact-check by FactCheck.org: rated "Exaggerated" the claim: "It was my great honor to Destroy All [of Iran's] Nuclear facilities & capability."”
“I'm a big believer in the Fourth Amendment's score that oath to the Constitution when I was an FBI agent.”
Checked as: Mike Rogers was an FBI agent. True, but missing context: The Mike Rogers documented as an FBI agent (1989–1994) is the Michigan congressman, not the Alabama congressman (Mike Rogers, R-AL) who appears to be the speaker of the claim.
source ↗Confidence: high“ROGERS, Mike, A Representative from Michigan; born in Livingston County, Mich., June 2, 1963; graduated from Howell High School, Howell, Mich., 1981; B.S., Adrian College, Adrian, Mich., 1985; United States Army, 1985-1989; Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1989-1994”
“What's happened is a scheduled 22% cut 2032 cannot let that happen”
Checked as: Social Security is scheduled to face a 22% cut in 2032. Supported by finance.senate.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
“I was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in the United States Congress at the time of Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Checked as: Mike Rogers was chairman of the House Intelligence Committee during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. True, but missing context: Rogers became chairman only in January 2011, after the main phases of both the Iraq War (begun 2003) and the Afghanistan War (begun 2001) were already underway or winding down.
source ↗Confidence: high“Speaker-elect John Boehner tapped Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) on Wednesday to serve as the chairman of the Intelligence Committee.”
“I'm Mike Rogers, United States Army officer, FBI agent.”
Checked as: Mike Rogers served as a United States Army officer and as an FBI agent. Supported by history.house.gov
source ↗Confidence: high
24 more claims we couldn't verify from our sources
- “in the last quarter century, we've lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Michigan”
- “In the last eight years, we have the highest utility rates in the Midwest”
- “There are two million Michigan families today who are on Medicare enjoying Part D prescription drugs, which I did champion”
- “He has taken money from individuals on his campaign who openly support Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda.”
- “He has taken money from groups associated and support the Muslim Brotherhood.”
- “He's taken money from the George Soros family.”
- “own a luxury property in the United Arab Emirates. He's worth a million bucks.”
- “a guy who's had less than four years of work experience who, by the way, on the campaign trail said he had 10”
- “He lied now about being an Egyptian citizen or not being an Egyptian citizen.”
- “He has called for open borders, decriminalizing crossing the border, giving illegals... identification and allowing them on Medicare.”
- “he would not even support the Iron Dome”
- “my opponent here, who likes to attack and make lots of accusation, is actually invested into the data centers. He's got $100,000 in a mutual fund directly invested in the companies that do data centers.”
- “He had a top staffer flee his campaign talking about how this guy's a manufactured candidate.”
- “that's what his sister said to him.”
- “that organization that was indicted for funneling money to Al-Qaeda.”
- “I had a brother that was disabled on disabled Social Security really, really important for their family. My parents counted on it for their retirement. My in-laws are currently counting on Social Security.”
- “the last eight years, we've had about $25,000 in new regulatory costs for every house.”
- “For every $1,000, you increase the value of that house or the cost of that house. 3,200 Michigan citizens can't afford that house.”
- “I did the education savings plans for Michigan. About 400,000 people enjoying those plans here in the state today.”
- “At that time, Russia was trying to get nuclear submarines, excuse me, torpedoes. China was going after us in space.”
- “we cut out $11 billion of a $78 billion budget.”
- “the new cost is $20,000 in new taxes per family.”
- “he supports the death panels that Canada implemented.”
- “Huge increases in your energy costs, that 30% alone in utilities.”
No fact-checker, primary source or wire report we search addressed these. That says nothing about whether they are true.
The moments
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 33:34
And yes, I would support pausing the federal gas tax. But there is one thing that is actually causing this. It's the war in Iran, a war that has been cheer-led by my opponents since the beginning.
Black-and-White Fallacy The phrase 'one thing that is actually causing this' implies a single, exclusive cause for a complex economic issue (gas prices), dismissing any other contributing factors — for example: "one thing that is actually causing this".
Scapegoating The sentence attributes the entire cause of high gas prices to a single war and blames opponents for it, oversimplifying a complex economic issue — for example: "It's the war in Iran".
Name Calling Labeling opponents as having 'cheer-led' a war is a derogatory characterization designed to discredit them rather than engage their arguments — for example: 'cheer-led by my opponents'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 33:34
If we don't stop this war, we don't stop it now, we're going to continue to watch as the Iranian regime chokeholds the Strait of Hormuz, making our energy prices higher. And you're going to pay for it both at the gas tank and at the grocery store. And so we've got to end that war above and beyond pausing the gas tax.
Appeal to Fear Creates anxiety about dire economic consequences tied to Iranian control of a critical waterway to pressure immediate action — for example: we're going to continue to watch as the Iranian regime chokeholds the Strait of Hormuz, making our energy prices higher and you're going to pay for it both at the gas tank and at the grocery store.
False Urgency The doubled conditional 'if we don't stop this war, we don't stop it now' creates artificial time pressure demanding immediate action — for example: we don't stop it now and we've got to end that war.
Loaded Language Uses emotionally charged term 'chokeholds' to frame Iranian actions in a viscerally threatening and violent way — for example: 'chokeholds the Strait of Hormuz'
Name Calling Labels Iran as 'the Iranian regime' rather than 'Iran' or 'the Iranian government', a derogatory framing designed to delegitimize — for example: 'the Iranian regime'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 33:34
We also have to hold the oil and gas corporations who are using this moment to profiteer us, who have bought off my opponent, accountable for what they're doing to raise our prices.
Loaded Language The word 'profiteer' is emotionally charged, implying exploitative and unethical behavior to trigger a negative reaction — for example: 'profiteer us'
Name Calling The phrase 'bought off my opponent' is a derogatory label implying corruption directed at a political rival without substantiation — for example: 'bought off my opponent'
Scapegoating Oil and gas corporations are singled out as the sole cause of rising prices, ignoring other complex economic factors — for example: 'what they're doing to raise our prices'
Conspiracy Appeal The claim that corporations have 'bought off' the opponent implies a hidden corrupt arrangement between industry and a political figure — for example: 'who have bought off my opponent'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 36:09
He's got a direct line to the president who's making sure the war does not end, and he's not using it because he's cheer-led this war the entire time. And this is not a "when it ends." We need to end it. That's what you're electing a U.S.
Loaded Language The phrase 'cheer-led this war' is emotionally charged, implying enthusiastic and irresponsible promotion of violence — for example: cheer-led this war
Conspiracy Appeal The claim that someone has a 'direct line to the president' who is 'making sure the war does not end' implies a hidden, sinister coordination to prolong conflict — for example: direct line to the president who's making sure the war does not end
False Urgency The emphatic 'We need to end it' creates a sense of immediate necessity and pressure to act, dismissing deliberation — for example: We need to end it
Appeal to Prejudice The appeal to what 'you're electing a U.S.' [senator/official for] invokes in-group identity and civic duty to pressure the audience toward a particular political choice — for example: That's what you're electing a U.S.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 42:35
Weak, cowardly. won't stand up until his poll numbers drop. This is what you can expect from a guy who's bought off $5 million from corporations to run his previous campaigns, voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them high 19 times.
Name Calling Derogatory labels applied to discredit a person without addressing their arguments — for example: 'Weak, cowardly'
Loaded Language Emotionally charged framing implying opportunism and spinelessness to trigger a negative reaction — for example: won't stand up until his poll numbers drop. and bought off $5 million from corporations.
Card Stacking Selectively presents negative claims (corporate donations, drug price votes) without any context or counterarguments, stacking evidence one-sidedly — for example: 'voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them high 19 times'
Appeal to Fear Warns the audience about personal harm to their prescription drug costs to provoke anxiety — for example: 'voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them high'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 42:35
He has the audacity to do an ad looking at the drug prices in Canada, except for he voted four times to keep you from buying the prescription drugs in Canada. It's incoherent. The only thing he cares about is his power and going back one more time through the revolving door to make, what, $14 million you made?
Loaded Language The word 'audacity' is emotionally charged, framing the subject's actions as brazen hypocrisy rather than neutrally describing them — for example: He has the audacity to do an ad and going back one more time through the revolving door.
Name Calling Derogatory labels used to discredit a person or group rather than address their arguments.
Appeal to Prejudice The framing implies the subject is an insider elite who only cares about personal enrichment, appealing to populist resentment of powerful political figures — for example: 'The only thing he cares about is his power'
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Claiming 'the only thing he cares about' is power and money is an absolute statement that overstates the case beyond what evidence supports — for example: 'The only thing he cares about'
Mike Rogers ▶ 43:05
He snuck in the back door to Chuck Schumer. That money is raining down on him. Oh, by the way, corporate executives, Pfizer Pharmaceutical, Namedia, Google.
Loaded Language The phrase 'snuck in the back door' uses emotionally charged language implying secretive, underhanded, or corrupt behavior — for example: snuck in the back door and money is raining down on him.
Conspiracy Appeal The imagery of sneaking through a back door implies hidden, covert coordination between unnamed actors and Chuck Schumer — for example: 'snuck in the back door to Chuck Schumer'
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Describing money as 'raining down' is an extreme overstatement designed to amplify the impression of corrupt financial influence — for example: 'That money is raining down on him'
Name Calling Listing powerful corporations by name without context implies they are villainous actors, using their names as derogatory labels to discredit the subject by association — for example: 'Pfizer Pharmaceutical, Namedia, Google'
Card Stacking Selectively listing prominent corporations alongside the implication of corrupt money flows without providing evidence or counterbalancing context — for example: 'corporate executives, Pfizer Pharmaceutical, Namedia, Google'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 43:25
The hypocrisy here is absolutely unstoning. Two yachts made $14 million. Do you guys know what Telefonica is?
Loaded Language The word 'hypocrisy' is emotionally charged and used to trigger a negative reaction rather than convey a neutral fact — for example: 'The hypocrisy here is absolutely unstoning'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 44:56
Contrast that with him. He wants you to have to pay $50 to see a doctor. He wants to continue to be Big Pharma's champion.
Appeal to Fear The sentence implies a threatening consequence — being forced to pay out-of-pocket for medical care — to provoke anxiety and opposition toward the subject — for example: 'pay $50 to see a doctor'
Name Calling The label 'Big Pharma's champion' is used as a derogatory tag to discredit the subject by associating him with a widely distrusted industry rather than addressing his actual policy positions — for example: 'Big Pharma's champion'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:58
A million dollars alone from Big Pharma. Another million dollars. from the health insurance corporations of course he is touting their talking points this is a guy who has not been serious about providing people health care his entire career what he has been serious about is making sure that he can monetize his time in public office 14 million dollars two yachts a mcmansion in florida so at the end of the day i i'm a doctor i want people to have health care
Loaded Language The term 'Big Pharma' is a loaded label designed to trigger negative associations rather than neutrally identify pharmaceutical companies — for example: Big Pharma.
Name Calling Derogatory labels used to discredit a person or group rather than address their arguments. — for example: touting their talking points.
Conspiracy Appeal Hidden plots, secret coordination, or shadowy actors invoked to explain away evidence.
Scapegoating The opponent's failure on healthcare is attributed entirely to corrupt financial motives and corporate ties, reducing a complex policy issue to a single cause — for example: monetize his time in public office
Card Stacking The speaker selectively presents financial figures (14 million dollars, two yachts, a McMansion) to paint a one-sided picture of corruption without providing context or counterarguments — for example: 14 million dollars two yachts a mcmansion in florida
Transfer The speaker invokes their identity as a doctor to borrow professional authority and moral legitimacy for their political position on healthcare — for example: i'm a doctor i want people to have health care
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Listing extravagant possessions (two yachts, a McMansion) alongside financial figures amplifies the portrayal of corruption beyond what the stated facts alone would support — for example: two yachts a mcmansion in florida
Mike Rogers ▶ 48:23
Well, let me just say it. He's lying. So he lied about being a physician.
Loaded Language The word 'lied' is an emotionally charged accusation used to discredit the subject rather than present evidence — for example: 'lied'
Mike Rogers ▶ 48:23
He lied now about being an Egyptian citizen or not being an Egyptian citizen. I can't figure out what he is today. But this impacts what he's trying to tell you where he wants you to be.
Name Calling The sentence labels the subject as a liar without providing evidence or context, functioning as a discrediting label rather than a substantiated argument — for example: "He lied now about being an Egyptian citizen or not being an Egyptian citizen".
Loaded Language The phrase 'I can't figure out what he is' uses ambiguous, othering language to cast doubt on the subject's identity and trustworthiness in an emotionally charged way — for example: "I can't figure out what he is today".
Appeal to Fear The sentence implies the subject has a hidden agenda to manipulate the audience's position, creating anxiety about being misled or controlled — for example: "this impacts what he's trying to tell you where he wants you to be".
Conspiracy Appeal The framing suggests the subject has a concealed manipulative intent, implying a hidden agenda behind his statements — for example: "what he's trying to tell you where he wants you to be".
Mike Rogers ▶ 48:23
That's a con man.
Name Calling The label 'con man' is used to discredit a person without addressing any specific argument or providing evidence — for example: 'That's a con man.'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 48:58
Can you afford your groceries? Under this guy, who's going to rubber stamp everything Donald Trump tells him to rubber stamp, you're going to continue to pay way more out the nose because he works for corporations and Donald Trump.
Appeal to Fear The rhetorical question implies financial hardship and anxiety about basic necessities to trigger an emotional response — for example: Can you afford your groceries? and you're going to continue to pay way more out the nose.
Loaded Language Emotionally charged phrases like 'rubber stamp' and 'pay way more out the nose' are used to provoke resentment and distrust rather than convey neutral facts — for example: 'pay way more out the nose'
Scapegoating Complex economic issues like grocery prices are blamed entirely on a single individual and corporations, oversimplifying causation — for example: 'he works for corporations and Donald Trump'
Repetition The phrase 'rubber stamp' is repeated three times within a single sentence for rhetorical effect to make the characterization feel established — for example: 'rubber stamp everything Donald Trump tells him to rubber stamp'
Mike Rogers ▶ 50:22
But it has been the largest decrease in murders ever recorded, almost 20% across the nation. Why? They were targeting murderers and rapists who were here illegally doing bad things.
Exaggeration/Hyperbole The claim of 'largest decrease in murders ever recorded' is an absolute superlative that goes beyond what available evidence clearly supports — for example: "largest decrease in murders ever recorded".
Scapegoating Attributes violent crime to a specific group (undocumented immigrants) by characterizing them as 'murderers and rapists' doing bad things, implying they are the source of the problem — for example: murderers and rapists who were here illegally doing bad things
Loaded Language Uses emotionally charged terms like 'murderers and rapists' and 'doing bad things' to provoke a strong negative reaction toward undocumented immigrants — for example: murderers and rapists who were here illegally doing bad things
Card Stacking Presents the enforcement action as solely targeting violent criminals while omitting any context about broader immigration enforcement that may have affected non-violent individuals — for example: targeting murderers and rapists who were here illegally
Mike Rogers ▶ 50:22
As a matter of fact, just in this town, we had Ruby Garcia, who was killed by an illegal immigrant, who if he had not been here, we'd still have Ruby alive today. today so if you think about what we need to do to make sure that neighborhoods and americans are safe that's exactly what we need to do and i would apply the same law enforcement standards to the fbi as i do the ice agents i think they do fine doesn't mean every one of them is perfect
Scapegoating A specific tragic case is used to imply that illegal immigrants as a group are responsible for violent crime, blaming a category of people for a complex problem — for example: "killed by an illegal immigrant, who if he had not been here, we'd still have Ruby alive today".
Loaded Language The term 'illegal immigrant' is an emotionally charged label designed to trigger a negative reaction rather than neutrally describe immigration status — for example: 'illegal immigrant'
Appeal to Fear The vivid invocation of a named murder victim tied to immigration status is used to generate fear and anxiety about immigrants in the community — for example: 'who was killed by an illegal immigrant, who if he had not been here, we'd still have Ruby alive today'
Glittering Generalities Vague appeals to keeping 'neighborhoods and Americans safe' invoke emotionally positive but substantively empty concepts to justify unspecified policy actions — for example: 'make sure that neighborhoods and americans are safe'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 51:40
Yes. But you don't have to do that by violating the whole Constitution in the way that ICE has been enabled to do by this rogue administration. ICE right now is not about immigration enforcement.
Loaded Language The word 'rogue' is emotionally charged and used to delegitimize the administration rather than make a factual argument — for example: 'rogue administration'
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Claiming ICE is 'violating the whole Constitution' is an extreme overstatement that goes beyond what evidence typically supports — for example: violating the whole Constitution and ICE right now is not about immigration enforcement.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 51:40
In fact, it's terrorizing folks in our streets. It's not funding the southern border, which needs to be kept safe. But what it is doing, it's weaponizing an agency of the government at the tune of Donald Trump and his groups.
Loaded Language The word 'terrorizing' is emotionally charged and extreme, designed to provoke fear and outrage rather than describe a policy neutrally — for example: terrorizing folks in our streets and weaponizing an agency of the government.
Appeal to Fear The claim that something is 'terrorizing folks in our streets' invokes vivid imagery of danger and threat to provoke an emotional fear response — for example: 'terrorizing folks in our streets'
Card Stacking The sentence selectively frames the issue by implying the policy fails to fund border security, omitting any context about what the policy does fund or its actual scope — for example: 'It's not funding the southern border, which needs to be kept safe'
Conspiracy Appeal The phrase implies a hidden, sinister coordination between a government agency and Donald Trump and his groups, suggesting shadowy manipulation of institutions — for example: 'at the tune of Donald Trump and his groups'
Mike Rogers ▶ 52:53
You know, this really fascinates me. He has called for open borders, decriminalizing crossing the border, giving illegals... identification and allowing them on Medicare.
Loaded Language Emotionally charged words chosen to trigger a reaction rather than convey facts. — for example: illegals.
Exaggeration/Hyperbole The phrase 'open borders' is an extreme characterization that overstates policy positions, implying total elimination of border controls — for example: 'open borders'
Appeal to Fear Listing benefits like Medicare for undocumented immigrants is framed to provoke anxiety about resource drain and loss of national control — for example: 'allowing them on Medicare'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 53:44
This is what happens when you start wars you never should be fighting. We literally taught the Iranian regime that they had a choke on the Strait of Hormuz, and now we're living in that reality. But that's what happens when you've got a ridiculous leader like Donald Trump who does not know what he's doing and jumped into this war for God knows what reason.
Appeal to Fear The sentence implies dire consequences from military engagement to create anxiety about the current situation — for example: wars you never should be fighting and now we're living in that reality.
Loaded Language The phrase 'choke on the Strait of Hormuz' uses visceral, threatening imagery to emotionally charge the geopolitical claim — for example: choke on the Strait of Hormuz and does not know what he's doing.
Name Calling The speaker uses the derogatory label 'ridiculous leader' to discredit Donald Trump rather than engaging with his policy decisions substantively — for example: 'ridiculous leader like Donald Trump'.
Conspiracy Appeal The phrase 'for God knows what reason' implies hidden or inexplicable motives behind the decision to go to war, suggesting a lack of legitimate justification and hinting at undisclosed agendas — for example: 'jumped into this war for God knows what reason'.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 53:44
Are we winning? Is anyone actually winning? That's the kind of policy you're going to get from a guy who wants to be a soccer puppet for the Trump administration.
Loaded Language Emotionally charged words chosen to trigger a reaction rather than convey facts.
Name Calling Derogatory labels used to discredit a person or group rather than address their arguments. — for example: soccer puppet.
Mike Rogers ▶ 55:22
But this is, I think, the issue that is maybe the most important. My opponent here would not condemn the IRGC, which... ...hanging two 19-year-old kids for saying that they want freedom in their homeland.
Name Calling Referring to the debate partner as 'my opponent' while implying moral failure by not condemning the IRGC frames them as complicit with a designated terror organization — for example: 'My opponent here would not condemn the IRGC'
Appeal to Fear Vivid imagery of teenagers being executed for expressing a desire for freedom is used to provoke an emotional reaction and pressure the audience toward a specific political stance — for example: 'hanging two 19-year-old kids for saying that they want freedom in their homeland'
Loaded Language The phrase 'hanging two 19-year-old kids for saying that they want freedom in their homeland' uses emotionally charged words ('kids', 'freedom', 'homeland') to trigger a strong emotional reaction rather than convey neutral facts — for example: 'hanging two 19-year-old kids for saying that they want freedom'
Mike Rogers ▶ 55:22
This is the same IRGC that has killed American troops in Iraq. It has blood on their hands, tried a terrorist attack here in the United States. If you can't condemn the IRGC, you have no business in the United States Senate.
Loaded Language The phrase 'killed American troops' is emotionally charged, designed to trigger outrage and patriotic anger rather than neutral factual framing — for example: killed American troops in Iraq and blood on their hands.
Black-and-White Fallacy The sentence presents only two options — either condemn the IRGC or be unfit for the Senate — ignoring any nuanced positions or procedural distinctions — for example: 'If you can't condemn the IRGC, you have no business in the United States Senate'
Appeal to Fear The statement implies that failure to condemn the IRGC represents a dangerous disqualification, creating anxiety about the fitness of political leaders and pressuring a specific response — for example: 'you have no business in the United States Senate'
Mike Rogers ▶ 55:22
And if you think about why, you know, his supporters funnel money from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood. This is a huge problem, and that is an ideological problem that we cannot allow to walk into the United States.
Conspiracy Appeal The sentence implies a hidden sinister financial network connecting unnamed supporters to the Muslim Brotherhood, suggesting covert coordination without providing evidence — for example: 'his supporters funnel money from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood'
Scapegoating The sentence attributes a broad ideological threat to a specific group (supporters linked to the Muslim Brotherhood), blaming them as a source of danger without nuance — for example: 'his supporters funnel money from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood'
Appeal to Fear The sentence frames the situation as a grave threat that must be stopped from entering the United States, creating anxiety to override rational deliberation — for example: 'an ideological problem that we cannot allow to walk into the United States'
Loaded Language The phrase 'huge problem' and 'ideological problem' use emotionally charged framing to amplify the perceived threat beyond what the evidence presented supports — for example: 'This is a huge problem, and that is an ideological problem'
Black-and-White Fallacy The sentence implies there are only two options: either block this ideology entirely or allow it to enter the US, leaving no room for nuanced policy — for example: 'we cannot allow to walk into the United States'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 56:47
Every single situation. Iraq, Iran. And what other wars is he going to cheerlead?
Loaded Language Emotionally charged words chosen to trigger a reaction rather than convey facts. — for example: cheerlead.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:17
He can't condemn a terrorist act that happened on our soil in the state of Michigan. He can't bring himself to condemn the Hezbollah.
Loaded Language The phrase 'terrorist act' and 'our soil' are emotionally charged terms designed to provoke a strong reaction — for example: terrorist act that happened on our soil and condemn the Hezbollah.
Appeal to Prejudice The phrase 'our soil' invokes in-group identity and territorial belonging to frame the accusation in terms of loyalty — for example: 'our soil'
Repetition The phrase 'He can't' is repeated across both sentences to rhetorically hammer the accusation of moral failure — for example: "He can't condemn", "He can't bring himself to condemn".
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:29
talking about making stuff up. I literally can this guy can't condemn it. He can't condemn Hamas.
Loaded Language Emotionally charged words chosen to trigger a reaction rather than convey facts.
Name Calling Derogatory labels used to discredit a person or group rather than address their arguments. — for example: He can't condemn Hamas.
Mike Rogers ▶ 58:17
A pretty hypothetical question. I support just staunchly their right to exist, the right to exist for the Jewish state, and the right to defend itself in a very difficult neighborhood. And if you think about why my opponent is so wrong on all of this, his biggest funders, his biggest funders are from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood.
Glittering Generalities Vague emotionally positive framing around 'right to exist' and 'right to defend itself' used as rhetorical flourish without substantive policy detail — for example: right to exist
Name Calling The opponent is discredited by associating him with the Muslim Brotherhood, a label used to delegitimize rather than address his arguments — for example: supports the Muslim Brotherhood
Conspiracy Appeal Implies a hidden sinister connection between the opponent and a controversial organization through his funders, suggesting shadowy coordination — for example: his biggest funders are from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood
Repetition The phrase 'his biggest funders' is repeated twice in immediate succession for rhetorical emphasis — for example: his biggest funders, his biggest funders
Appeal to Prejudice Exploits in-group/out-group identity by linking the opponent to a group associated with a religious/political movement to trigger negative bias — for example: a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood
Mike Rogers ▶ 58:17
I was a special agent with the FBI to keep America safe. These are the most important issues. The prattling and repetition of his argument does not solve the dismantling of terrorist network that America demands.
Transfer The speaker invokes their FBI credentials to lend authority and legitimacy to their political position — for example: "I was a special agent with the FBI to keep America safe".
Loaded Language Emotionally charged words chosen to trigger a reaction rather than convey facts. — for example: The prattling and repetition of his argument.
Name Calling Derogatory labels used to discredit a person or group rather than address their arguments.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 59:41
You know, you asked a hypothetical question about being attacked by Iran, but let's be honest about what happened here. Israel has pushed us to go to war in Iran. And of course, my colleague, who thinks there's a war for everything, went right along with it.
Scapegoating Israel is blamed as the singular actor responsible for pushing the US into war with Iran, oversimplifying a complex geopolitical situation — for example: 'Israel has pushed us to go to war in Iran'
Name Calling The colleague is dismissively labeled as someone 'who thinks there's a war for everything,' a derogatory characterization meant to discredit rather than engage their argument — for example: 'my colleague, who thinks there's a war for everything'
Mike Rogers ▶ 63:46
Anybody that wants to help my campaign stop a guy who can't condemn terrorism in our own country because he's so close to the people who are supporting the Muslim Brotherhood? Again, I'll take all of that help. And matter of fact, I think he's a little concerned about the two properties he owns, United Arab Emirates.
Appeal to Fear The sentence invokes terrorism and extremist associations to create fear about the opponent — for example: "can't condemn terrorism in our own country".
Name Calling The opponent is implicitly labeled as an extremist sympathizer by associating him with the Muslim Brotherhood without substantiation — for example: so close to the people who are supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.
Conspiracy Appeal The sentence implies a hidden sinister connection between the opponent and a designated extremist organization, suggesting covert allegiances — for example: he's so close to the people who are supporting the Muslim Brotherhood and a little concerned about the two properties he owns, United Arab Emirates.
Loaded Language Emotionally charged terms are used to trigger a strong reaction against the opponent — for example: condemn terrorism and Muslim Brotherhood.
Card Stacking An unverified insinuation about foreign property ownership is presented as a damning fact without evidence or context, implying corrupt foreign ties — for example: 'the two properties he owns, United Arab Emirates'
Mike Rogers ▶ 64:19
He could not bring himself to even acknowledge the pain, the terrorism, the rape, the murders, cutting off of women's breasts, putting children in ovens and killing them in front of their families. could not even muster.
Loaded Language The sentence uses a cascade of emotionally charged and graphic terms designed to provoke horror and outrage rather than convey neutral facts — for example: the terrorism, the rape and the murders.
Appeal to Fear The graphic enumeration of atrocities is designed to generate visceral fear and horror in the audience, framing the subject's silence as unconscionable in the face of extreme violence — for example: 'putting children in ovens and killing them in front of their families'
Repetition The repeated use of 'the' before each atrocity ('the pain, the terrorism, the rape, the murders') creates a rhythmic rhetorical accumulation intended to intensify emotional impact — for example: 'the pain, the terrorism, the rape, the murders'
Mike Rogers ▶ 69:57
This guy is so full of hypocrisy, it's just hard to fathom. When he starts going through these things and rattles them off, what he's basically telling you is he will say anything to win. And by the way, that's what his sister said to him.
Loaded Language The word 'hypocrisy' is used as an emotionally charged label to discredit the subject rather than address specific arguments — for example: 'full of hypocrisy'
Name Calling The sentence broadly characterizes the subject as someone who will 'say anything to win,' functioning as a derogatory label to discredit rather than engage with specific claims — for example: 'he will say anything to win'
Card Stacking An unverified claim about what the subject's sister allegedly said is presented as supporting evidence without any qualification or sourcing, lending false credibility to the attack — for example: 'that's what his sister said to him'
Mike Rogers ▶ 69:57
He would say anything he needed to get elected. This is all just nonsense that he dribbles out there.
Name Calling The sentence dismisses the subject as a cynical liar willing to say anything for personal gain, functioning as a derogatory label rather than engaging with specific arguments — for example: "He would say anything he needed to get elected".
Loaded Language The word 'nonsense' and the verb 'dribbles' are emotionally charged and contemptuous, chosen to demean the subject's statements rather than address their content — for example: "nonsense that he dribbles out there".
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 74:00
He wants this to be about anything but his own record. He's okay if the federal government spies on you, but he wants to make this about anybody else. Going after my mom, my sister.
Card Stacking The sentence implies the opponent is deliberately deflecting from his record without presenting evidence of what that record contains or addressing any counterarguments — selectively framing the opponent's motives to discredit him — for example: "He wants this to be about anything but his own record".
Appeal to Fear The claim that the federal government spies on 'you' is designed to create anxiety and a sense of personal threat in the audience — for example: "the federal government spies on you".
Conspiracy Appeal Implying that the opponent is complicit in or approves of covert government surveillance of citizens suggests a hidden sinister arrangement — for example: he's okay if the federal government spies on you
Appeal to Prejudice Invoking family members (mom, sister) appeals to in-group loyalty and personal sympathy to generate an emotional reaction against the opponent rather than engaging on policy — for example: Going after my mom, my sister
Mike Rogers ▶ 79:04
You can see it at StopAbdul.com. You can see the exact cost he's trying to impose. So the last eight years, we've had about $25,000 in new regulatory costs for every house.
Name Calling a label in place of an argument — for example: "StopAbdul.com".
Loaded Language The phrase 'trying to impose' frames the opponent's policy actions as coercive and threatening rather than neutral governance — for example: trying to impose
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 81:55
And the reality of it is that while my colleague was in Congress for 14 years, they accrued a $12 billion. trillion dollar deficit 12 trillion dollars the 40 trillion we have 12 trillion alone came while he was in congress so he's going to talk a big game about balancing budgets it didn't really quite do that did we why because every time his party's in power we do two things we cut taxes for the richest people or and we go to war and that's exactly what donald trump has just done with the one big ugly bill and the iran war and he's backstopped the entire thing so what do you think you're going to get with him more deficit more debt only to tell us we can't have health care
Loaded Language The phrase 'one big ugly bill' uses emotionally charged, derogatory language to describe legislation rather than neutral descriptive terms — for example: 'one big ugly bill'
Black-and-White Fallacy The speaker presents only two outcomes from the opposing party being in power — tax cuts for the rich and war — ignoring any other possibilities or nuances — for example: 'every time his party's in power we do two things we cut taxes for the richest people or and we go to war'
Appeal to Fear The speaker warns that electing the opponent will result in more deficit, more debt, and loss of health care, creating anxiety to drive a specific political response — for example: 'what do you think you're going to get with him more deficit more debt only to tell us we can't have health care'
Repetition The words 'deficit' and 'debt' are repeated in close succession to reinforce a negative association with the opponent — for example: 'more deficit more debt'
Scapegoating The speaker attributes the entire national deficit problem to the opposing party's pattern of behavior, oversimplifying complex fiscal causes — for example: 'every time his party's in power we do two things we cut taxes for the richest people or and we go to war'
Mike Rogers ▶ 83:00
It's dangerous. They're going to take away your personal health care, and the new cost is $20,000 in new taxes per family. Oh, and by the way, you have to answer to the government.
Appeal to Fear The single word 'dangerous' is used as an opener to prime the reader with fear before any evidence is provided — for example: It's dangerous., They're going to take away your personal health care and you have to answer to the government.
Exaggeration/Hyperbole The specific figure of '$20,000 in new taxes per family' is presented as fact without sourcing, likely an extreme overstatement designed to shock — for example: '$20,000 in new taxes per family'
Loaded Language The phrase 'take away your personal health care' uses emotionally charged possessive language to trigger a protective reaction — for example: take away your personal health care and you have to answer to the government.
Mike Rogers ▶ 83:00
Oh, and by the way, he supports the death panels that Canada implemented. Do you want the government making those decisions? at a more expensive cost and less access.
Loaded Language The term 'death panels' is a highly charged, emotionally loaded phrase designed to trigger fear and outrage rather than describe policy accurately — for example: 'death panels'
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Describing Canadian healthcare policy as 'death panels' is a gross overstatement that misrepresents the actual policy — for example: 'death panels that Canada implemented'
Appeal to Fear The rhetorical question is designed to provoke anxiety about government control over life-and-death decisions, pressuring the audience toward a specific emotional response — for example: 'Do you want the government making those decisions?'
Black-and-White Fallacy The question implies only two options: either accept government 'death panels' or reject the policy entirely, ignoring nuanced alternatives — for example: 'Do you want the government making those decisions?'
Card Stacking Selectively presents only negative attributes (higher cost, less access) of the referenced policy without any counterbalancing evidence or context — for example: 'at a more expensive cost and less access'
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 83:34
This guy voted to keep prescription drug prices high. He's enthralled to all the corporations that have nickel and dimed you. $64,000 alone from DTE.
Loaded Language The phrase 'voted to keep prescription drug prices high' frames a legislative vote in emotionally charged terms implying deliberate harm to ordinary people — for example: voted to keep prescription drug prices high and enthralled to all the corporations that have nickel and dimed you.
Scapegoating Corporations are broadly blamed as the singular cause of financial harm to ordinary people, oversimplifying a complex issue — for example: 'all the corporations that have nickel and dimed you'
Card Stacking A specific dollar figure is presented without context — such as whether this is legal, typical, or how it compares to other politicians — selectively implying corruption through a single data point — for example: '$64,000 alone from DTE'
Mike Rogers ▶ 85:44
So that means you're bought off by George Soros' family. That means that you're bought off by Hamas... Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, those people who are supporting you pour that money into your campaign.
Name Calling Accuses the target of being 'bought off' by George Soros, a figure frequently used as a derogatory label to discredit political opponents — for example: bought off by George Soros' family, bought off by Hamas and Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, those people who are supporting you.
Conspiracy Appeal Implies a hidden sinister financial relationship between the target and a shadowy donor figure, suggesting secret corrupt coordination — for example: you're bought off by George Soros' family, you're bought off by Hamas and pour that money into your campaign.
Loaded Language The phrase 'bought off' is emotionally charged language designed to trigger a reaction of corruption and betrayal rather than convey a factual claim — for example: 'bought off'
Appeal to Fear Linking the target to Hamas invokes fear of terrorism to override rational evaluation of the target's actual positions — for example: bought off by Hamas and Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, those people who are supporting you pour that money into your campaign.
Repetition The phrase 'bought off' and the pattern of associating the target with multiple terrorist/extremist groups is repeated across all three sentences to reinforce the smear through familiarity — for example: 'Hamas... Hezbollah, Al Qaeda'
Mike Rogers ▶ 85:44
You begged Chuck Schumer, begged Chuck Schumer. Matter of fact, you had to sneak by the trash cans in the back of the building to beg for that money. So here's the guy to send money out of politics and until it gets to shove into his pocket.
Repetition The phrase 'begged Chuck Schumer' is repeated twice in the same sentence for rhetorical emphasis and to make the humiliation feel more vivid — for example: 'begged Chuck Schumer, begged Chuck Schumer'
Name Calling The word 'begged' is used as a derogatory label to demean the target and imply weakness or desperation — for example: You begged Chuck Schumer and shove into his pocket.
Loaded Language The vivid image of sneaking 'by the trash cans in the back of the building' is emotionally charged language designed to humiliate and degrade the target — for example: 'sneak by the trash cans in the back of the building'
Exaggeration/Hyperbole The accusation that the target takes money and shoves it into his pocket is an extreme, unsubstantiated characterization designed to paint him as brazenly corrupt — for example: 'shove into his pocket'
Mike Rogers ▶ 86:13
That absolutely tells you who he is. The guy on his staff that said he will say anything to get elected and tell you one thing one time and another the next time, he's a manufactured candidate.
Loaded Language The word 'absolutely' is used as an intensifier to make a sweeping character judgment feel definitive and emotionally charged — for example: absolutely tells you who he is and he will say anything to get elected.
Name Calling The label 'manufactured candidate' is a derogatory term used to discredit the person rather than engage with their policy positions — for example: 'he's a manufactured candidate'
Mike Rogers ▶ 87:06
We cannot afford Abdul, and we cannot risk his ideology. Think about what he's proposing: the largest, most massive tax increase in the history, taking over your private health insurance and giving it to the government. Huge increases in your energy costs, that 30% alone in utilities.
Appeal to Fear The phrase 'cannot risk his ideology' frames the subject as a dangerous threat requiring avoidance — for example: we cannot risk his ideology, taking over your private health insurance and giving it to the government and Huge increases in your energy costs.
Loaded Language The word 'ideology' is used with negative connotation to trigger an emotional reaction rather than describe a specific policy — for example: risk his ideology and taking over your private health insurance.
Exaggeration/Hyperbole Describing the proposal as 'the largest, most massive tax increase in the history' is an extreme superlative claim presented without evidence — for example: the largest, most massive tax increase in the history and Huge increases in your energy costs, that 30% alone in utilities.
Full transcript
From the AI transcript of the broadcast; highlighted answers are where the model found a technique.
Moderator ▶ 33:10
Thank you Leland and welcome to News Nation viewers across the country and voters all across Michigan. Thank you for being here. We're going to start with the subject that will impact every single person watching. Dr. El-Sayed, we'll begin with you. Would you support pausing the federal gas tax and what else would you advocate doing to lower fuel prices? You have 60 seconds, sir.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 33:34
First, Rick, thank you so much for having me. Look, I'm a doctor and I'm a dad. And as a dad, I know how much it costs me to fill up my gas tank. It is insane. $80. $80 to fill up your gas tank. And yes, I would support pausing the federal gas tax. But there is one thing that is actually causing this. It's the war in Iran, a war that has been cheer-led by my opponents since the beginning. Called it a win-win-win. I don't know about you, but when I go to the gas tank, I don't feel like I'm winning. I don't feel like our country is winning. Seven months on, eight months on, how long is this going to last? We can do so much better. But here's the problem. If we don't stop this war, we don't stop it now, we're going to continue to watch as the Iranian regime chokeholds the Strait of Hormuz, making our energy prices higher. And you're going to pay for it both at the gas tank and at the grocery store. And so we've got to end that war above and beyond pausing the gas tax. We also have to hold the oil and gas corporations who are using this moment to profiteer us, who have bought off my opponent, accountable for what they're doing to raise our prices.
Moderator ▶ 34:36
Congressman, the same question to you. Would you support pausing that gas tax? And what else would you do to lower fuel prices?
Mike Rogers ▶ 34:40
Yeah, I've been... pretty aggressive about saying we need a pause both on the state level and the federal level. Remember when it that 50 cents a gallon which will help commuters went through the democratically controlled state senate they said no. Republicans tried to say give drivers a break. I think that's really important. The other thing we did in talking with farmers is we need some diesel help and some diesel agrarian diesel help for us uh so i've called for a diesel rebate number one uh and a uh pause on uh exports of diesel to give a temporary break we can resume that once the war comes to an end i do believe it's going to come to an end we need it to come to an end but i will say just a couple of things about my my opponent here His policies will raise your, the cost of every gallon of gasoline, number one, raise your utility rates, cause you $20,000 for a Medicare for All plan that takes away private insurance from individuals. It is a disaster. We cannot afford Abdul.
Moderator ▶ 35:44
Dr. El-Sayed, I want to do a follow-up with you now. The United States is producing oil and gas at near record pace. But the products are traded on the international market, and of course, that's what sets the price. Should the federal government implement price controls on domestically produced production? You have 30 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 36:09
Look, I definitely think that's something we should consider. Look, we are in an emergency. When you're paying $5 gas and $8 diesel, that's an emergency. And I think we have a responsibility right now to make sure we do everything we can to address it. But you just heard something out of my opponent. He said he thinks the war is going to end. He's got a direct line to the president who's making sure the war does not end, and he's not using it because he's cheer-led this war the entire time. And this is not a "when it ends." We need to end it. That's what you're electing a U.S. Senator to do, to stand up to Donald Trump and end this stupid war.
Moderator ▶ 36:42
Congressman, follow-up for you for 30 seconds. Would you be in favor of doing some type of price controls if these prices stay this high? You have 30 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 36:48
No, I think you could do it through the mechanism of which I just described. And the doctor, well, he's not really a doctor. He says he's a physician. Matter of fact, if somebody came into his office and he tried to treat that patient, he'd go to jail. So listen to this guy and what he's trying to sell here today. You're going to find out that this guy is not what he says he is. He is actually selling the best con I think I've ever seen. This is the first round of that, and I can't wait to talk more about that.
Moderator ▶ 37:18
You were mentioned in that comment. You have 30 seconds to respond.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 37:22
You know, my opponent here is going to make this about him and about me. But really, in the end, this is about you. It's about whether or not you can afford your gas, you can afford your groceries, whether or not you can see a doctor. Look, I have a medical degree from Columbia University. This guy issues my credentials. He could take it up with them. But it's not really about me. It's about whether or not you can see your doctor. It's about whether or not you trust your next U.S. senator to stand up to Trump and Trumpism. But when you're running because Donald Trump called you and asked you to run, you can tell he's not going to stand up to anybody.
Moderator ▶ 37:54
30 seconds to respond, then we'll move on.
Mike Rogers ▶ 37:54
Well, first of all, I'm running because in the last quarter century, we've lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs in Michigan. In the last eight years, we have the highest utility rates in the Midwest, highest auto insurance rates in the country. Now you have to be 40 years old, or the average new homeowner is 40 years old. Our education is now 40 years. fifth in the country. That's why I'm running. My opponent, everything he's talking about, and he won't talk about how to pay for it or what he does to make sure that he's taking money out of your pocket because he can't.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 38:30
Mike, you did that, man. That was your policy. NAFTA, your policy.
Moderator ▶ 38:34
We'll come back to this. We'll move on right now. I want to talk about the trade battle between the United States and Canada, what it means for Michigan jobs and Michigan prices. Congressman Rogers, a week ago you said this at a news conference near Saginaw. Anytime you have that series and list of tariffs, I argue some are going to be really good for Michigan, some are probably not going to be good for Michigan. So what I've said and committed to is going back, working with the president to try to get rid of the ones that we can, there's consensus aren't helping. But just yesterday you released a new ad that said, quote, here in Michigan, we know Canada is not our enemy. We need to end this tariff war now. So In the course of a week, it seems that you've changed your tone on tariffs. Are you saying that we need to eliminate all tariffs for Canada? you have 60 seconds
Mike Rogers ▶ 39:27
i would like to see the deal made i have actually called uh the white house this week talked to the sec uh the secretary of commerce about getting the deal done canada still has some high tariffs for u.s goods and they did it before this started those should be eliminated there are tariffs that i think are too high and not helpful for us we ought to get rid of those So this is about getting the best deal possible. I'd like to see it end. I think we need to end it. And as a matter of fact, have made those phone calls this week to make sure that we can get those things taken care of. Now, again, remember, my opponent here wants to raise the cost of everything you touch. He's for an energy carbon credit that would everything you touch your groceries getting more expensive. Your car, more expensive. Your light and electric bill, more expensive. The fact that he's going to take away your private health insurance, turn it over to the government, and it would cost each family about $20,000 a year in new taxes? This is the problem we've got to face.
Moderator ▶ 40:29
Dr. El-Sayed, on your website you say, quote, I support targeted smart tariffs that would help protect Michigan manufacturing and incubate the industries of the future with unions at the forefront. With that said, what is a Canadian tariff that you might keep? You have 30, I'm sorry, you have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 40:48
One that's actually logical, unlike anything Donald Trump has ever actually done in office. Look, you're hearing somebody who has cheer-led, again, a Canadian tariff policy that we are paying $5,600 a year for. If we were serious about using tariffs, we would do it in the way that the UAW has advocated. The UAW has advocated for smart tariffs, where we actually hook it to an industrial policy that makes sense. We're invested in high growth, high manufacturing capacities, and then we use tariffs to protect our own market. This is, like everything, ham-fisted, chaotic, self-serving that Donald Trump does. And the issue that is making Mike move, right? You talked about his flip-flop. The reason he's flip-flopping has nothing to do with policy, has nothing to do with your costs, has everything to do with his sagging poll numbers. He doesn't like the fact that this is not a pathway to power for him anymore. So all of a sudden he's reverse course. He's doing an ad drinking Labatt's and talking about the Red Wings, pretending like he was not for this the entire time. Be serious, my guy, like just be serious. People deserve to know that they have a leader who's going to be serious about policy.
Moderator ▶ 41:53
We're going to move on to health care unless you have a response.
Mike Rogers ▶ 41:58
Well, listen, what he's talking about, a few weeks ago, he said, I will go back and fight every one of the tariffs that have been put in place. Detroit Diesel added a third shift because of those tariffs. We have the Chevy Silverado came back to Michigan. Huge, billion-dollar investment because of those tariffs. We saved... Trevor said he cherries because of those tariffs. He wants to undo it because he can't see past his own political rhetoric. We didn't change. What we said is things move. We're trying to get it wrapped up. We want a deal on those tariff deals.
Moderator ▶ 42:30
Dr. Ellis, I have 30 seconds. We have to move on.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 42:35
Weak, cowardly. won't stand up until his poll numbers drop. This is what you can expect from a guy who's bought off $5 million from corporations to run his previous campaigns, voted to raise your prescription drug prices or to keep them high 19 times. He has the audacity to do an ad looking at the drug prices in Canada, except for he voted four times to keep you from buying the prescription drugs in Canada. It's incoherent. The only thing he cares about is his power and going back one more time through the revolving door to make, what, $14 million you made?
Mike Rogers ▶ 43:05
You know, I can't let that stand. I mean, let me just tell you this. I won't let this stand from a guy who is taking corporate PAC money. He snuck in the back door to Chuck Schumer. That money is raining down on him. Oh, by the way, corporate executives, Pfizer Pharmaceutical, Namedia, Google.
Moderator ▶ 43:20
We have to keep this in order.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 43:25
The hypocrisy here is absolutely unstoning. Two yachts made $14 million. Do you guys know what Telefonica is? It's a corporation he advised that was helping Maduro spy on his own people. How much money do you make off them? you tell us how much money you made can you say okay
Mike Rogers ▶ 43:36
is this like the deal that you cut with county where you took taxpayers money to run for the united states the women who replaced them got paid a hundred thousand dollars less
Moderator ▶ 43:49
we're going to move to healthcare democratic
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 43:49
i do want to talk about health care i know he doesn't but let's let's get
Moderator ▶ 43:49
we're going to talk about health care And guys, I'm going to tell you right now, we've got to stick to our time limits. We've got a lot to cover. I appreciate your passion, but please, let's try to keep this orderly. We're now moving to health care. Democratic State Representative Karen Whitsitt said she is supporting Republican Mike Rogers in this race because of your Medicare for All position, Dr. El-Sayed. Her husband has employer-provided health insurance. You will lose your health insurance if the other candidate gets in office. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. That is what Medicare for All means. Dr. El-Sayed, you have said additional private coverage would become redundant. In your plan, could families keep their private health care? Yes or no? You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 44:46
Yes, absolutely, Rick. If families want to keep their private health insurance, that's fine by me. But for too many people, if you lose a job...
Mike Rogers ▶ 44:52
That is absolutely news to me.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 44:56
If you want to lose your... If you lose your job, if you turn 26, you get married, get divorced, turn 65, all ways that you can lose your health care in America. That is exactly what this guy has signed on to. He voted against the ACA, for God's sake. I want to guarantee every single person in this country cradle to grave coverage without premiums, copays, deductibles, that doesn't have a network, that does not pay a corporate CEO tens of millions of dollars a year. that allows you to have the security of knowing you're not going to be one of the millions of people in this country who fall into medical debt to the tune of $225 billion. Contrast that with him. He wants you to have to pay $50 to see a doctor. He wants to continue to be Big Pharma's champion. He called himself Big Pharma's champion, took more money from the pharmaceutical industry than any member of Congress, more than any member of Congress in the Michigan delegation. This is a guy who wants to do service for the corporations. Of course he's going to stand up for them.
Moderator ▶ 45:47
Congressman Rogers, staying with health care, Flint physician and past president of the American Medical Association, Dr. Bobby McCullough criticized the federal health care legislation enacted last year that you said would protect Medicaid. The cuts to federal health care programs, including Medicaid and CHIP, will shift costs to the states and specifically to physicians and hospitals to provide uncompensated care at a time when rural hospitals and physician practices are struggling to keep their doors open. The congressman, the doctor says the changes will instead make health care less accessible. What specifically in that law leads you to say that Medicaid was protected? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 46:33
$50 billion to rural hospitals was a good start for that. But let me just talk about this. So when I was in Congress, I actually pushed the acceleration of generic drugs. Trust me, the pharmaceutical company's not happy about it. There are two million Michigan families today who are on Medicare enjoying Part D prescription drugs, which I did champion because there was no prescription drug coverage under Medicare, which I thought was a terrible idea. But what my friend here just wants to do, as he's kind of like a glitchy AI chat bot, is say the same thing over and over and over again. But let me tell you this: He has taken money from groups associated and support the Muslim Brotherhood. He has taken money from individuals on his campaign who openly support Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda. He's taken money from the George Soros family. What we found out is that this thing goes way back. Apparently they paid for his education in Colombia. Now they're paying for his campaign. By the way, that's a billionaire, last I checked.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:35
What degree did I get at Columbia?
Moderator ▶ 47:39
We're out of time. I'm going to give you a 30-second rebuttal.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:41
What degree did I get at Columbia?
Mike Rogers ▶ 47:41
I get interviewed by him, not by you.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:45
As a doctor, I understand exactly what's happening.
Mike Rogers ▶ 47:45
Not a physician.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:45
He says I like to say the same thing.
Mike Rogers ▶ 47:49
Not a physician.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:49
He says I like to say the same thing. He's done the same thing over and over and over again. You know what that is? Vote to keep your prescription drug prices high 19 times.
Mike Rogers ▶ 47:55
That's just not true.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 47:58
A million dollars alone from Big Pharma. Another million dollars. from the health insurance corporations of course he is touting their talking points this is a guy who has not been serious about providing people health care his entire career what he has been serious about is making sure that he can monetize his time in public office 14 million dollars two yachts a mcmansion in florida so at the end of the day i i'm a doctor i want people to have health care
Moderator ▶ 48:10
all right 30 seconds let
Mike Rogers ▶ 48:23
me tell how does a guy who's had less than four years of work experience who, by the way, on the campaign trail said he had 10, own a luxury property in the United Arab Emirates. He's worth a million bucks. Somebody has to tell me how this math works. A, his facts are wrong. Those are lies. But he is consistently not telling the truth. Well, let me just say it. He's lying. So he lied about being a physician. He lied now about being an Egyptian citizen or not being an Egyptian citizen. I can't figure out what he is today. But this impacts what he's trying to tell you where he wants you to be. That's a con man.
Moderator ▶ 48:58
Congressman, we've got to stay on time.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 48:58
I just want to respond to this. You can respond to me. You remember what I said. He wanted to make this about him or me. But the question is about you. Can you afford your gas? Can you afford your groceries? Under this guy, who's going to rubber stamp everything Donald Trump tells him to rubber stamp, you're going to continue to pay way more out the nose because he works for corporations and Donald Trump.
Moderator ▶ 49:21
Okay, look, here's the situation. We've got dozens of questions we want to get to. You can't litigate all of these with 14 different rebuttals. So please work with me. I want you to say what you want to say. Do it within the body of an answer, and we'll try to move along. Let's talk about another subject this time. It's a viewer question, and here's my colleague Amber Kriska with that.
Other ▶ 49:42
ICE has been a source of controversy since President Trump's second term began. This question is from Deb Morello. My question for both candidates with regard to ICE and ICE agents, what is your plan for for holding them accountable or holding them to the same standards as other law enforcement officials? And if the plan is to abolish ICE, what is your plan for keeping our borders and citizens safe?
Moderator ▶ 50:12
Congressman Rogers, you've been supportive of President Trump's immigration enforcement strategy. Name one instance or one circumstance in which you believe the administration went too far. You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 50:22
You know, I think the public efforts in Minnesota were probably not appropriate. I actually did fugitive raids when I was an FBI agent in Chicago. You always want to go in quiet, get the bad guy, get out of the neighborhood for less problems. So that to me was something that they could have done differently. They made that correction. They made that adjustment. But it has been the largest decrease in murders ever recorded, almost 20% across the nation. Why? They were targeting murderers and rapists who were here illegally doing bad things. As a matter of fact, just in this town, we had Ruby Garcia, who was killed by an illegal immigrant, who if he had not been here, we'd still have Ruby alive today. today so if you think about what we need to do to make sure that neighborhoods and americans are safe that's exactly what we need to do and i would apply the same law enforcement standards to the fbi as i do the ice agents i think they do fine doesn't mean every one of them is perfect
Moderator ▶ 51:20
dr elsaad you've made your position clear you want to abolish ice let me give you a scenario if an undocumented undocumented immigrant in Michigan commits a violent crime, serves a sentence and has a deportation order. Under your system, would he be deported? You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 51:40
Yes. But you don't have to do that by violating the whole Constitution in the way that ICE has been enabled to do by this rogue administration. ICE right now is not about immigration enforcement. ICE is about terrorizing our streets. He's talked about what happened in Minneapolis. I went there. He said it was probably not right. I mean, definitely not right. They killed two people. You can keep a safe and secure southern border. I believe we have to keep a safe and secure southern border, which is crazy to me because my opponent, he voted against border funding when he was in Congress, and now he likes to talk about being a tough guy on the border. Those are not the same thing as what ICE is doing. I think we can go back to an era like INS when we enforced immigration policy at the edge of the Constitution, and we respected the Constitution in doing it. But I also think we need a pathway to citizenship for folks who are stuck in limbo right now. You've got this tough guy attitude to immigration that's not keeping us safe. In fact, it's terrorizing folks in our streets. It's not funding the southern border, which needs to be kept safe. But what it is doing, it's weaponizing an agency of the government at the tune of Donald Trump and his groups.
Moderator ▶ 52:46
Congressman, in the interest of a short rebuttal of 15 seconds, he talked about one of your votes when you were in Congress.
Mike Rogers ▶ 52:53
You know, this really fascinates me. He has called for open borders, decriminalizing crossing the border, giving illegals... identification and allowing them on Medicare. You can't get a worse plan than what you hear from Abdul. Go to StopAbdul.com. Every one of his deleted tweets and videos are there. Very educational.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 53:09
You made a website. That's awesome. Good for you. uh look at the end of the day i think we have to have a safe and secure southern border that's why i wouldn't vote against border funding like him but we also have to obey our constitution we are a country of laws and a country of immigrants and i think we need a pathway uh to to legal immigration for folks
Moderator ▶ 53:21
thank you both i want to turn now to the war in iran you have both indicated you want it to come to an end and we talked about this a few minutes ago but what does that look like dr el sayed can the war in iran come to a end if the street of hormuz isn't fully open and if iran has the ability to produce a nuclear weapon you have 60 seconds
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 53:44
i might be old-fashioned but i believe in diplomacy in fact diplomacy is what the obama administration had used to negotiate a scenario in iran where we did not have proliferation of of nuclear material We were at a steady state, except for Donald Trump just doesn't like anything that President Obama has done. So he decided to rip it up in his first term, and then his second term decided to make war that was completely unnecessary. So I do think that we can end the war and we can actually, by peaceful means, diplomatically address this challenge. This is what happens when you start wars you never should be fighting. We literally taught the Iranian regime that they had a choke on the Strait of Hormuz, and now we're living in that reality. But that's what happens when you've got a ridiculous leader like Donald Trump who does not know what he's doing and jumped into this war for God knows what reason. And the whole time, my opponent backstopped it. Win, win, win. Are you winning? Are we winning? Is anyone actually winning? That's the kind of policy you're going to get from a guy who wants to be a soccer puppet for the Trump administration. No thinking, no thought, whatever Donald Trump says, jump. He says, how high?
Moderator ▶ 54:49
I'm going to give you 10 seconds. And once again, the question, can there be an end to the war if the straits is not open and if Iran has the ability to produce a nuclear weapon? 10 seconds with a yes or no, please.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 55:00
Yes. And we do that at the edge of diplomacy rather than war that's raising our gas prices and our grocery rates.
Moderator ▶ 55:08
Congressman Rogers, same questions. Both of you have said you'd like to see this war come to an end. But if the straits aren't open and if Iran has the ability to possess a nuclear weapon, Can you have an end of the war 60 seconds?
Mike Rogers ▶ 55:22
Well, this is why I've called to an end of the war. Militarily, they have set back the nuclear program at least 20 years. They've decimated their Army, Navy, their Air Force. They still have some limited capability to inflict harm on their neighbors. So this would be the time to wrap it up. That was the stated intent. But this is, I think, the issue that is maybe the most important. My opponent here would not condemn the IRGC, which... ...hanging two 19-year-old kids for saying that they want freedom in their homeland. This is the same IRGC that has killed American troops in Iraq. It has blood on their hands, tried a terrorist attack here in the United States. If you can't condemn the IRGC, you have no business in the United States Senate. And if you think about why, you know, his supporters funnel money from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood. This is a huge problem, and that is an ideological problem that we cannot allow to walk into the United States.
Moderator ▶ 56:26
Quickly, in 10 seconds, can the war be ended if the straits are not open and if Iran can produce a nuclear weapon?
Mike Rogers ▶ 56:34
Well, no, it can't if they have a nuclear weapon, but all of the information is they do not have that capability any longer. So, I mean, you're asking a question of a hypothetical. The information that is available says that they have been set back 20 years.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 56:47
So I just want to say he's been cheerleading this war for the better part of 20 years. and I will condemn any, any use of force against a domestic population abroad. That's not hard to do. But I also condemn a war we shouldn't be fighting because here we are fighting this stupid war because people like him have been pushing for it for 20 years. When you've got an international problem, he's got a war for that. That's his approach. Every single situation. Iraq, Iran. And what other wars is he going to cheerlead? That is dangerous. We cannot have that in the U.S.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:13
Can I tell you what's dangerous? This is important.
Moderator ▶ 57:17
15 seconds, please.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:17
He can't condemn a terrorist act that happened on our soil in the state of Michigan. He can't bring himself to condemn the Hezbollah.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 57:22
I did condemn it, and you know it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:26
Oh, you did not. You absolutely did not.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 57:26
Don't make stuff up. Don't make stuff up.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:29
talking about making stuff up. I literally can this guy can't condemn it. He can't condemn Hamas. He can't condemn the Muslim Brotherhood. He says his home is Egypt.
Moderator ▶ 57:38
This is all starting. We are going to move along. We continue. We can continue this conversation in the second half.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 57:41
He doesn't want to home to Florida. I just he took it off the market. I don't know why.
Mike Rogers ▶ 57:49
He just take it home in the United Arab Emirates. Staying in the Middle East.
Moderator ▶ 57:53
Congressman Rogers
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 57:53
in the United States. Not in Michigan, my guy.
Moderator ▶ 57:53
I'd like to be part of the debate too. So let's do this. We'll stay in the Middle East. Congressman Rogers, you have pledged unconditional support for Israel's right to defend herself. Is there any action by the Israeli government that would cause you not to support sending U.S. military assistance? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 58:17
A pretty hypothetical question. I support just staunchly their right to exist, the right to exist for the Jewish state, and the right to defend itself in a very difficult neighborhood. And if you think about why my opponent is so wrong on all of this, his biggest funders, his biggest funders are from a group that supports the Muslim Brotherhood. He gets money from people who support openly Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, His family was even included in those discussions. Listen, this is the most important thing that we do when we go back to Washington, is keep America safe. I wore the uniform of the United States of America. I was a special agent with the FBI to keep America safe. These are the most important issues. The prattling and repetition of his argument does not solve the dismantling of terrorist network that America demands.
Moderator ▶ 59:18
Got 10 seconds. Is there anything Israel could do that would lose your support?
Mike Rogers ▶ 59:23
Listen, if they're talking about using nuclear weapons, they would definitely lose my support. I've never heard them say that, though.
Moderator ▶ 59:28
Dr. El-Sayed, you have opposed direct U.S. military funding to Israel. But if Israel were attacked tomorrow by Iran or another state actor, would you vote to provide defensive weapons necessary to protect the Israeli people? Yes or no, and you have 60 seconds to explain.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 59:41
I've been absolutely clear. I want our tax dollars spent here to provide schools here. And by here, I mean Michigan, not Florida. I want to make sure we've got good schools here and healthcare here. I want to make sure that we are taking care of people here. That is my priority. You know, you asked a hypothetical question about being attacked by Iran, but let's be honest about what happened here. Israel has pushed us to go to war in Iran. And of course, my colleague, who thinks there's a war for everything, went right along with it. And here we are. Israel had clear war aims. They wanted us to go to war with them. And their war aims were what? The annexation of southern Lebanon? Ask yourself, are we safer because of that war? He wants unconditional support for a foreign government. I want unconditional support for kids in our schools, unconditional support for our health care, child care, things that he would vote to defund. So it's just inconsistent to me to be running for Senate from Michigan when you're more focused on what's happening to a foreign government than you are focused on what's happening to folks right here in Michigan. It's just not serious.
Moderator ▶ 60:45
If there was a tax, would you provide defensive weapons for Israel?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 60:50
I don't want our tax dollars buying weapons for other countries. I don't know what's so hard about that.
Mike Rogers ▶ 60:56
I'll answer the question. Absolutely. He won't. He will not matter of fact he would not even support the Iron Dome. We wouldn't even support the Iron Dome which helps not only us but allies.
Moderator ▶ 61:08
We cannot do this for every question. Dr. El-Sayed, our next question addresses concerns from some in the Jewish community about your position on Israel. A supporter told News Nation's Leland Vidert at a rally that Israel is a bigger problem, a bigger threat I should say, to the United States than Iran. Leland then asked you, Which country you consider the greater threat to the United States? And here's part of your response. You're going to be a senator. What do you view is the biggest threat? I've been more than extremely clear about this. I don't want our tax dollars being used to subsidize war abroad. I don't want our tax dollars being used to fund unconditionally foreign militaries. I think it's important that we be the first among equals to enforce international law against any and every country that breaks it. So this sort of like hypothetical who's a bigger threat is a dumb question. I'm sorry. Dr. El-Sayed, we didn't quite, we got the part that you thought it was dumb, but we didn't understand or kind of get to that answer. So I'm going to ask you again tonight, who do you think is a bigger threat to the United States, Israel or Iran? You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 62:12
And again, Rick, I'm just going to say that that's a ridiculous hypothetical, because here's what's happening right now. Our ostensible ally in Israel has lobbied us to go to war with Iran. We have watched as Iran has responded by bombing all kinds of countries in the Middle East and then choking off the world's energy supply. So, this is a situation in which I don't think we should be apart. I don't want to be pushed into war by Israel, and I don't want to be in a war with Iran. I want our money spent here to buy schools and healthcare and childcare here. I don't understand why that is so inconceivable. Now, I've got a guy to my left over here who thinks that the best use of our money is to go fight wars abroad. What has that given us? It's part of the reason why he was in Congress. $12 trillion, the national debt blew up because he's never seen a war he didn't want us fighting. So I don't consider an ally a country that takes us to wars we don't need to fight, and I don't want to be fighting wars we don't need to fight. I just think that makes both of them kind of dangerous.
Moderator ▶ 63:10
I'll ask one last time. Israel or Iran?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 63:15
That's, again, a ridiculous question. I think both of them have proven dangerous in their own way. One, at risk of attacking us. One, getting us into wars. We have no business fighting.
Moderator ▶ 63:27
Thank you. Congressman Rogers, Axios reported that your allies asked AIPAC not... to advertise on your behalf and Axios also reported that you talked with the chair of AIPAC and the next day they discontinued an ad on your behalf. Do you welcome AIPAC's public support given that you do support many pro-Israeli positions? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 63:46
Anybody that wants to help my campaign stop a guy who can't condemn terrorism in our own country because he's so close to the people who are supporting the Muslim Brotherhood? Again, I'll take all of that help. And matter of fact, I think he's a little concerned about the two properties he owns, United Arab Emirates. I think the other one's Egypt, if I'm not mistaken. Can you correct me? Where's the other one?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 64:08
Yeah, no. Yeah, that's exactly right. $2.7 million in Florida, my guy. Yeah, I'll talk about it. You know what? Did you sell your yachts?
Mike Rogers ▶ 64:15
I never owned a yacht in Florida, brother.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 64:15
Oh, really? Where's your yacht? You had two of them.
Mike Rogers ▶ 64:19
Let me tell you this one thing. Today or yesterday was October 7th. This is why you should get absolutely angry. He could not bring himself to even acknowledge the pain, the terrorism, the rape, the murders, cutting off of women's breasts, putting children in ovens and killing them in front of their families. could not even muster.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 64:41
So I've condemned that.
Mike Rogers ▶ 64:41
He could not even muster.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 64:44
I've condemned that. But I didn't turn it into political theater like you just did.
Mike Rogers ▶ 64:49
He did not. All right, let me tell you this.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 64:49
I just need to respond. No, no, no. He's interrupted me for about half of my time. So I'm so sorry, but I'm not somebody who tries to make political theater out of other people's pain.
Mike Rogers ▶ 65:01
Your whole campaign is political theater.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 65:01
And you turn it into political theater.
Mike Rogers ▶ 65:05
Including putting on a white jacket.
Moderator ▶ 65:05
Gentlemen, gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. We're going to take a break from this pleasant conversation. And when we come back, we're going to talk about a topic that has been making headlines across the country with data centers.
Other ▶ 65:51
First, a reminder, candidates enter the spin room once our debate is over. This QR code will take you to our live post-debate coverage. We'll be back in 70 seconds.
Moderator ▶ 66:31
Welcome back to everyone watching across the country in NewsNation. And we welcome the candidates back to the spin room. I want to take a quick aside and tell you that in 30 years of doing debates I've never seen it continue during the commercial but it did. Let's get right to our next question. Data centers are becoming a flashpoint for voters across Michigan and that's the topic of our next question. Congressman Rogers you said Michigan should quote take a pause probably on new data center development and have support of one-year statewide moratorium that that places you at odds with President Trump, who has tried to accelerate AI and data center development. Is a one-year pause long enough? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 67:28
Well, I think you have to get some really important questions answered. It needs to be a local decision. They need to have water control systems that you're not using more and more water. They need to show up with their power. I've said that they should also 100% of every facility If a community wants one of these facilities, every dollar of the generated property tax should go to defray the cost of everyone that lives in that municipality. Dollar for dollar, it should go down. There's just so many questions that people need answered. You can't bigfoot this. I think you need that time to answer those questions. If people go forward and want one, there might be a way to get this done. I will tell you that my opponent here, who likes to attack and make lots of accusation, is actually invested into the data centers. He's got $100,000 in a mutual fund directly invested in the companies that do data centers. So it's really important that we have this pause, answer people's questions, and make sure a guy like this isn't making the decision on this.
Moderator ▶ 68:36
Thank you, Congressman. Dr. El-Sayed, you have called for public control of AI companies. Why should the federal government have an ownership or governing role in private AI? And you can respond to the Congressman's comments as well. You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 68:50
What a joke. I mean, I own mutual funds. He's personally invested in the company that controls the real estate for the Saline Data Center. And I think I should ask him, if he wants a moratorium, should the construction stop on his personal investment? Because I'd love it to. I've been clear we need a terms of engagement. I've been clear that we need government that's not bought off. by corporations, not bought off by big tech, not bought off by the very people who benefit, who have personal investment stake in the companies that are driving us to the edge of what the people who are developing this technology say could cause real doom, real harm. And look, I think we need people who actually understand the technology. I've been very clear. We need a terms of engagement on the data centers. I've been very clear that we need to put AI under democracy. And if the corporations and their CEOs are right that this is going to take nearly 50% of our white-collar jobs, I think it's important for the public to have a real stake rather than private investors to the tune of $2.6 million in the data center put in your backyard alone.
Moderator ▶ 69:48
I'm going to go to you for 30 seconds. I'm going to go to you for 30 seconds, and then we're going to move on.
Mike Rogers ▶ 69:57
So this to me is the most important thing, rapid accusations and other things. He had a top staffer flee his campaign talking about how this guy's a manufactured candidate. He watched him say one thing to one group and say another thing to another group. This guy is so full of hypocrisy, it's just hard to fathom. When he starts going through these things and rattles them off, what he's basically telling you is he will say anything to win. And by the way, that's what his sister said to him. He would say anything he needed to get elected. This is all just nonsense that he dribbles out there.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 70:31
You done? You could have showed up to the last debate if you actually had things to say. You could have showed up in the third debate that you turned down. Let's be clear. So, you've got a situation in which this guy, personally invested in AI, doesn't want to talk about AI. Instead, he just wants to point to me. But remember what I told you at the very outset. He wants to talk about himself. He wants to talk about me. But he doesn't want to talk about you. You, who are worried about having a data center in your backyard. You, who are worried about AI taking your job. You, who are worried about the doom of AI. He does not want to talk about you because the policies being pressed are the ones from Donald Trump and he will not stand up to Donald Trump. Notice Trump saying, no breaks on AI, even though we know it's risky. He won't say a thing.
Moderator ▶ 71:12
All right. What I want to talk about is sticking with the next question. Technology for a moment. Flock cameras and other information devices have many people worried about privacy. should the federal government put guardrails on these cameras? Dr. El-Sayed, you have 60 seconds to answer.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 71:28
Yes, absolutely. I just, yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think the idea of being surveilled wherever you are without your consent is a very dangerous thing. Now, Mike... is going to have a hard time answering this question. I cannot wait to see what he has to say. Because when he was in Congress, he literally told somebody from the stand, if you don't know your privacy is being violated, is your privacy really being violated? It's like the peeping Tom vote he's going after everywhere. And I'm sure you want it. The question to me is, why do we continue to have a situation in which we're watching more and more technology steal more and more of our data? The very big tech corporations that are buying his campaigns, all those attack ads, you're seeing big tech and big pharma but the big tech part is really scary because you don't know what they have on you and he said again another quote we would love to have just a bit of what Google has on you do you imagine that that guy right there that's what he said I don't think we should be surveilling people I think it's a ridiculous thing and yes I think when people have their privacy violated yeah you really did have your privacy violated even if you didn't know it
Moderator ▶ 72:23
Congressman, same question. Should the federal government put guardrails on this technology?
Mike Rogers ▶ 72:29
I think local government needs to do this. I'm a big believer in the Fourth Amendment's score that oath to the Constitution when I was an FBI agent. Protecting Fourth Amendment rights is critically important. I think the states can do it. If they're just using it for citizens who have committed no crimes, I would not be for that at all. And, you know, my opponent just doesn't understand the national security infrastructure, so he's trying to jumble it all up on people. But I will tell you this. Those programs were really, really important in catching people who were suspected of terrorists and being terrorists, committing a terrorist act. That's really, really important. And why would that bother you? Well, if you have someone in your family that might be on the side of the watch list...
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:15
Are you going to go ahead and say that I'm a... Go ahead and say it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:18
No, I'm going to say what? Did you not have family on...
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:20
You've been tiptoeing around the whole time. Just say it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:20
No, I haven't been tiptoeing.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:23
Go ahead and say it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:23
Do you know why? Do you know why? Because of your policies. Because of your policies.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:26
That's so wrong. That literally used surveillance.
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:29
Is this his question, sir, or is it mine?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:29
Used surveillance. So I'm just saying, if you want to come out and say something, go ahead and say it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:35
No, no, well, let's do this. All right, let's open up this can of worms. I'll give you an answer. I'll tell you what my mother did. She was a small...
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 73:41
You going after my mom?
Mike Rogers ▶ 73:41
I'm not going after your mom. What your mom was working at, I was going after that organization that was indicted for funneling money to Al-Qaeda. Look, that's your mom. My mom worked at a law, small chamber of commerce. I'll put my mom up any day for that.
Moderator ▶ 73:54
All right. We'll give you a rebuttal and we're moving away from this subject.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 74:00
He wants this to be about anything but his own record. He's okay if the federal government spies on you, but he wants to make this about anybody else. Going after my mom, my sister. Got nothing to actually say about me. I'm a dad and a doctor. I'm trying to get money out of politics, put money in your pocket, pass Medicare for all. He wants to take every corporate dollar he can to jump for Donald Trump.
Moderator ▶ 74:23
We have another viewer question. Amber Kriska is back with that question.
Other ▶ 74:26
Our next question is from William Bush. His focus is on Social Security and whether it will still exist. If you are elected, the Social Security Trust Fund is predicted to become insolvent during your term in office. There's no more kicking the can down the road. Can you please tell me two specific things you intend to propose or support in order to keep the program solvent?
Moderator ▶ 74:49
We thank him for that question. We're going to put a little finer point on it, knowing that Social Security is going to be in trouble, and it's a safety net for so many people. I'm going to give you some choices, Art, and you may come up with your own, but which alternative would you propose? Higher payroll taxes, taking the cap off, eliminating the cap on income, a higher retirement age, or lower scheduled benefits? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 75:14
Well, I think there's probably more options than that. I will tell you, this, my family... Social Security. I had a brother that was disabled on disabled Social Security really, really important for their family. My parents counted on it for their retirement. My in-laws are currently counting on Social Security. We cannot. What's happened is a scheduled 22% cut 2032 cannot let that happen i think this has to be a bipartisan solution i'd propose that committee put them in a room lock the doors and say don't come out until we have a real solution that can get bipartisan support the other thing and i tried this early on in my congressional career to say any money that the federal government borrows out of the social security fund which i think is wrong has to get paid back first at the next fiscal year. And what that would do is start to measure and tamp down other spending at the expense of Social Security.
Moderator ▶ 76:11
- Dr. El-Sayed, same thing. What alternative would you, Proposed to support, close that gap. Higher payroll taxes, eliminating the income cap, a higher retirement age, or lower scheduled benefits. You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 76:22
I think the answer is obvious here. We should eliminate the cap, right? It's only fair that the rich should pay their fair share. People need and deserve Social Security. I'll take it one step further. I think it's ridiculous that you get Social Security taken off your paycheck every single month only to have to pay taxes on Social Security once it actually kicks in. I think we need to eliminate that tax. And the reality of it is that Republicans, MAGA, all the eras, whether it was the neocon era that he was a part of or the MAGA era that he wants to be a part of, they've been against Social Security for a long time. Donald Trump has said very clearly that he does not believe that this is sustainable or should be something that we continue to invest in. Instead, he wants money for wars that people like Mike Rogers are perfectly happy to go and fight. So look, I think that this is a critical thing. We have to get at it. I actually think, though, that the question for us is this. Do you elect a U.S. senator in Michigan who wants to fight the Trump agenda, or do you elect a U.S. senator in Michigan who literally said that he answered the call from Donald Trump and is therefore running? Who is going to actually get to work to save Social Security?
Moderator ▶ 77:29
To another topic now, you both say Michigan needs substantially more housing. Your approaches are different. Dr. El-Sayed, you say America needs a building boom. boom. But you additionally want government action against large corporate investors and speculators buying housing. What type of action do you want to see happen in Congress towards this 60 seconds?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 77:47
Yeah, I just don't think big corporations should be able to buy housing and speculate on it. I don't think that that is legit. It takes housing stock off the market and creates a situation in which it increases the price of housing for folks who would be first-time homeowners. I also think we just need to build a whole lot more. We need to address a lot of the red tape that has made it very difficult for folks to get those projects zoned and licensed. But I also want to take on Airbnb and Vrbo. Now, you know, I don't know what Mike intends to do with his house in Florida, but, you know, he said that he wants to rent it out. We can do the house swap with yours and the UAE. Airbnb and Vrbo this thing. So look, What Airbnb and Vrbo has done is allowed very rich people to buy excess housing and then rent it on a market that artificially inflates the price of housing for everybody else. And I just think that we need to make sure that Airbnb and Vrbo pay their fair share. I also think we need a renter's bill of rights to enable renters to have those rights in case he decides to rent to somebody and decides to be a slum landlord. So I just think it's important to put basic... curbing on the power of big corporations in our lives.
Moderator ▶ 78:51
Congressman, your housing message is, quote, train more builders and fire more bureaucrats. I want you to explain that. And also, would you support prohibiting large investment firms and buying thousands of single-family homes? You have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 79:04
Yeah, this whole affordability issue is absolutely critical to answer this problem. If you go to StopAbdul.com, you can see all the costs that my opponent has talked about. He deleted it all. He didn't want you to see it. We found it. News for you. You can see it at StopAbdul.com. You can see the exact cost he's trying to impose. So the last eight years, we've had about $25,000 in new regulatory costs for every house. For every $1,000, you increase the value of that house or the cost of that house. 3,200 Michigan citizens can't afford that house. We have to tamp down on those regulatory environments. You know, I did the education savings plans for Michigan. About 400,000 people enjoying those plans here in the state today. And what we want to do is I want to make sure that they have the same kind of thing for new homeowners to save tax-free, have your boss kick in tax-free, have your grandma kick in tax-free, so you get to that 20%. You do that, you reduce the regulation, you increase the ability for them to be able to afford that down payment, it gets people into the house.
Moderator ▶ 80:12
We're going to move on to a subject that we could have talked about for the last 40 years, although the number keeps getting higher, and that's the federal debt. It's now more than $40 trillion. Interest rates are high. Investors are issuing warnings. And first-time homebuyers are having a hard time getting into the market. Congressman Rogers, can you tell voters one significant spending cut or tax change or entitlement reform that you would support, even if it's politically unpopular, to start reducing taxes? that you have 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 80:45
So I was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in the United States Congress at the time of Iraq and Afghanistan. At that time, Russia was trying to get nuclear submarines, excuse me, torpedoes. China was going after us in space. It was pretty precarious time for the country. I took a look at that budget. I worked in a bipartisan way with my ranking Democrat. We sat down over the course of the summer and we cut out $11 billion of a $78 billion budget. That just wasn't done back then. It was never done. Then we made sure that that money didn't get added in in the six years that followed our cut in that budget. I think there is fat and waste in every department, and I put the Department of Defense in there as well. I think if you go after the fraud, the fraud numbers now are about $500 billion, and you go after waste in each one of these departments, like I have done in a bipartisan way, I think you can get that math down to a good place pretty quickly.
Moderator ▶ 81:41
Dr. El-Sayed, it seems something has to change. Can you point to a significant spending cut or entitlement reform or tax change that you would support even if it's not politically popular? You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 81:55
Tax, billionaire, wealth. It's that simple. We're going to return $4.6 trillion simply by taxing billionaires. Look, I don't know about anybody. He's going to get precious about billionaires here in a second. But, yeah, I don't think it's important for a billionaire to make a second billion. I think it's more important for the average person to be able to make their first $100,000. Think about what you could do with $4.6 trillion back to our federal budget. Think about what it would mean for things like health care, things like child care. And the reality of it is that while my colleague was in Congress for 14 years, they accrued a $12 billion. trillion dollar deficit 12 trillion dollars the 40 trillion we have 12 trillion alone came while he was in congress so he's going to talk a big game about balancing budgets it didn't really quite do that did we why because every time his party's in power we do two things we cut taxes for the richest people or and we go to war and that's exactly what donald trump has just done with the one big ugly bill and the iran war and he's backstopped the entire thing so what do you think you're going to get with him more deficit more debt only to tell us we can't have health care
Moderator ▶ 82:53
I'll give you 30 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 83:00
Yeah, this is the guy. He just does not want to explain what his proposals are. That's why he does this. Talk pretty talk. You learned that in Oxford, I guess, how to talk pretty. But I will tell you what. It's dangerous. They're going to take away your personal health care, and the new cost is $20,000 in new taxes per family. Oh, and by the way, you have to answer to the government. Oh, and by the way, he supports the death panels that Canada implemented. Do you want the government making those decisions? at a more expensive cost and less access. So, well, I'm not done yet. -
Moderator ▶ 83:27
You are because we're at the end of the show. We're gonna run out of time. 30 seconds for you, Dr. Olsen.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 83:34
- Yeah, in case I wasn't clear, tax, billionaire, wealth. Look, I actually went to, I learned that at Michigan where I actually went to school. I don't just parade around in the block M. The reality of it is that we can do this. It's just math, more money in, less money out. So ask yourself whether or not this war is good for you. This guy voted to keep prescription drug prices high. He's enthralled to all the corporations that have nickel and dimed you. $64,000 alone from DTE. Not true? Not true?
Moderator ▶ 83:56
We've got to stay on time. We're getting to our final question, and here it is. We have had a number of people... ask questions from viewers and expressing concern about the divide between right and left. So starting with you, Dr. El-Sayed, who do you work for? Can you name one Trump policy you would have voted for because you believe it was right for Michigan? You have 60 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 84:20
I work for the people of the state of Michigan. I have never taken a dime from a corporation to run a campaign. This guy took more money from corporate super PACs than anybody in the Michigan delegation when he was in Congress. He called himself the champion of big pharma. I don't work for them. I don't work for Big Insurance, who's also bottomed off. I don't work for Big Tech, who's bottomed off. I don't work for DTE, who's also bottomed off. I work for the people. And I believe, as such, we have a responsibility to work with anybody who is going to champion the issues that people have. Actually, that policy that you asked me about, Rick, about the question of whether or not we should have corporate speculators buying housing, that's something that Donald Trump seemed to agree with me with. Congressional stock trading, something he's done, also Donald Trump agreed with me with. I don't own personal stock. I'm not trying to make myself rich off of my job in public service. This guy has done exactly that. $14 million. That's what he made when he left Congress doing the work for the corporations he had just previously been regulating, who had bought him off when he was in Congress in the first place.
Moderator ▶ 85:21
We have to go 60 seconds.
Mike Rogers ▶ 85:21
This is so offensive to me. This is incredible. And it is not the truth. And you know it's not the truth. Like I said, interrupt. You're like that. AI chat bot that's a little glitchy. You just say it over and over and you make accusations for a guy that...
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 85:37
It's your record, my guy. You did it.
Mike Rogers ▶ 85:37
No, I did not. I never traded a stock.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 85:40
$64,000 in DTE. Did you or did you not take it?
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 85:44
Did you or did you not?
Mike Rogers ▶ 85:44
So that means you're bought off by George Soros' family. That means that you're bought off by Hamas... Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, those people who are supporting you pour that money into your campaign. You begged Chuck Schumer, begged Chuck Schumer. Matter of fact, you had to sneak by the trash cans in the back of the building to beg for that money. So here's the guy to send money out of politics and until it gets to shove into his pocket.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 86:10
Who's paying for your ads? That tells you. Who's paying for your ads? That tells you.
Mike Rogers ▶ 86:13
That absolutely tells you who he is. The guy on his staff that said he will say anything to get elected and tell you one thing one time and another the next time, he's a manufactured candidate.
Moderator ▶ 86:24
We've come to the end of our discussion. Thank you both very much. You have 30 seconds to wrap up our debate, beginning with you, Dr. El-Sayed, and you must stay on time. 30 seconds.
Abdul El-Sayed ▶ 86:31
Look, I told you what this debate was going to be. Him pointing at me and saying all kinds of foreign names, or him talking about himself. And I told you I'm interested in you. I understand that gas is too expensive. Groceries are unaffordable. I understand that it's really hard to see a doctor. And I want to solve that. And the reason we haven't is because we've got corporate politicians who are going to do the bidding of people like Donald Trump. The war in Iran, the tariff war, all the money he's taken from pharma. Ask yourself if that's helped you. I believe in money out of politics, money in your pocket, Medicare for all.
Moderator ▶ 87:06
30 seconds, Congress.
Mike Rogers ▶ 87:06
We cannot afford Abdul, and we cannot risk his ideology. Think about what he's proposing: the largest, most massive tax increase in the history, taking over your private health insurance and giving it to the government. Huge increases in your energy costs, that 30% alone in utilities. It's a carbon tax that affects everything that you buy. I'm Mike Rogers, United States Army officer, FBI agent. Don't listen to this guy. I will make and fight for a better Michigan.
Moderator ▶ 87:34
Thank you, candidates. I appreciate you being here. Thanks to News Nation, our broadcast partners, and to all of you who are watching. Don't forget to go to Wood TV Plus for the spin room right now for more on tonight's debate, including reaction from the candidates. And the final word is good night from Grand Rapids. Thank you.